I’m getting a new slip and it’s big upgrade for me in terms of marina ingress/egress. I will now have a docking space on an end cap such that there won’t be any maneuvering in and out of a slip per-se. This spot is on the main thoroughfare of the marina and the dock parallels that. The thoroughfare terminates at a launch ramp and a wide spot. There is about 60 ft between sides of this main thoroughfare. My new dock will be on one side of that 60 ft. I think that I may be able to come into this basin close to one side and hard-turn within that 60 ft width and dock 180 degrees from my approach – essentially a U-Turn. It looks do-able but I’d like to hear anyone else’s account of turning within known, measurable constraints in the NS30 and how it went. My experience is that these turn really well – about as well as any 30 footer but I’ve not measured the space within which that can occur.
I can just come straight in and side-up to my dock but then getting out would be either a two point turn astern or doing the same U-Turn but in the opposite direction to exit the marina.
I would think you would be able to but it will have a lot to do with the conditions and what drive set up your boat has. I believe they where produced with both direct drives and some sail drives, your prop and wether its a U-turn to port or starboard will also effect your results.
For example on Hippo I have a direct drive with a right hand 2-blade folding prop. The prop shaft also exits the hull off center and angled to starboard, this counteracts the starboard prop walk when in forward and at cursing RPM’s allows her to travel in a straight line with no rudder needed. But it has a big effect on how she can maneuver especially at low speeds.
In light to no wind - I can turn her in about a boats length to starboard by using the port kick in reverse and the fact that the rudder swings in-front of the prop in that direction. With the boat stoped I simple leave the wheel hard to starboard and give her a bump in forward and then as soon as she start to gain way i give her a bump in reverse, then forward… repeating until she is pointing in the desired direction. Now this is impossible if the desired turn is to Port. For that mater at low speed any turn to port is much more difficult than one to starboard due to the prop/ rudder setup.
If i had a sail drives with the prop on center i would have more even handling port vs starboard but would probably need a degree or two of rudder when motoring counteract the prop walk which would add some small amount of drag.
At higher speeds the turning is much more even but the turning radius would also gets larger. The other big factor is windage with our masts all the way forward, the bow is very much controlled by the wind and a fair amount of way is needed for the keel and rudder to grip and counteract it. So for Hippo there is almost no chance of tuning to port at low speeds if the wind is on the port beam. If I’m on a dock, starboard side to with any real wind on the beam from port the only way i can get off is to spring the stern out and then reverse off into the wind. Our boats like to weather vane and as you loose way the bow will swing down wind making it often best to reverse into the wind no matter the maneuver.
As for your U-Turn, for Hippo if the turn was to port (making it a starboard side to). I wouldn’t use that approach in any wind condition as i would have to carry a lot of speed to make the turn that then i would need a lot of reverse to stop the boat and with her hard kick to port as i stopped the boat it would drive the stern away front the dock.
With any amount of cross wind it would get worse, if the wind was blowing me on to the dock the turning radius would get larger and even more speed would be needed for the turn and if I did make the turn and made the dock I would end up having to use so much revers to stop her that she would end up with the bow getting blown hard on and the stern sticking out in the middle somewhere. Or if the wind was blowing me off the turn would be easier but as I applied reverse to stop. The bow would be blow away from the dock as the boat came to a stop and the port kick pushing the stern away from the dock. In this situation she is likely to not make the dock and drift out side ways away from it.
If the turn is to starboard it could be a viable option in light winds. Especially if the wind is on the bow or blowing onto the dock. But there would be other factors consider; current, wind, space on the dock, number of crew on board.. etc.. If my home slip was a T head that was enclosed by another outer dock i would probably park different each time depending on the condition and mixing it up would be great practice.
Colle Bustin
S/v Hippo Nonsuch 30C #173
Port Washington, NY
Hi Eric, Standing turns work well with my '33. Soave behaves much the same way as Colle explains, plan the maneuver so you are turning to starboard.
A spring line might also be helpful if you have crew.
Wind has more impact on Soave’s ability to maneuver than other boats I’ve owned, evaluate your proposed spot with an eye on prevailing wind direction. It’s nice to have help from the wind a majority of the time.
Good luck and enjoy the upcoming season.
Rob Cohen
s/v SOAVE
NS33 #009
Cedar Point YC
Westport, CT
Thank you both for the detailed opinions and suggestions. Mine has a saildrive and a left hand rotation with a three blade Kiwi. I haven’t really noticed much prop walk with this boat.
I’m leaning toward just coming straight in and siding up to the dock to port which should be easy single handing. Going out would involve a 180 degree turn to starboard where I have about 50-60 ft to complete a turn and head out. Winds when present would usually push me away from my dock reinforcing the idea that coming in straight to dock on arrival would likely be best leaving the U-Turning to leaving instead of upon arriving. The other thing I hadn’t considered is that when there are boats loading and launching from the ramp, I’ll be able to better time exiting by being right there at the ramp and seeing what traffic is present and timing things appropriately. Coming in, if I see traffic, it wouldn’t affect me much as I just slide up to the dock but could prove troublesome if I was planning on a U-Turn and hadn’t seen the traffic prior.
Yeah, what he said. The wind direction is crucial. I have spun the boat in maybe a little over a boat length with no, or very light wind. Otherwise I can only do a 180 - from pointing upwind to pointing downwind. I’ve only had a Nonsuch for a couple of years, but I’ve had boats all my life and this one weathervanes like no other. When I test drove a different Nonsuch, the ailing owner hired a very good local captain to do the demo. He’d never sailed a Nonsuch (though did a great job of it) and the first thing he mentioned was how strongly it weathervaned.
My slip is on a dock with 12 charter sailboats. That’s 12 boats which come and go often and in all wind conditions. In fact, sunset cruises are apparently very big business and so they are often getting underway in late afternoon when winds are at their peak. These guys pop in and out effortlessly, but if you pay attention they sometimes go down the fairway in forward, sometimes in reverse, sometimes fast, sometimes slow. And they enter their slips whichever way works best with the wind. It’s important to their business that everything they do looks professional and effortless. I don’t like having my cockpit against the dock, so I don’t back in. When I back out I try to turn so that I am motoring up the fairway in forward, but if the wind is to starboard I have to back all the way out. I’m getting used to it and it does give me a better view of cross traffic as I am leaving the fairway. But with the normal prevailing winds it is impossible for me to back all the way out of the fairway, so that’s unusual.
When I bought the boat the selling broker conducted the demo sail. He’s a nationally known racing sailor/captain/strategist, so it was interesting to watch him handle the boat. Anytime he needed to back it, he popped around to the forward side of the binnacle, faced aft, took the throttle in his left hand and drove the thing like a car. I’ve not got to that point, but it does give me something to shoot for!
The point of this long ramble is that it may be difficult and sometimes impossible to spin it as you wish and other times it may almost do it on its own. Perhaps some practicing outside of the marina would help. I’ve made only a handful of bad landings in my life and one of them was in this boat just a couple of months ago when I didn’t pay attention to the wind direction. (With one of you on board, of course!) Thankfully I believe in lifelong learning. I should do more practicing myself, but I’m dependent on keeping my “crew” (guests) happy or I can’t go - and they mostly like to sail.
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Agreed lines are your friend when getting off the dock! If you are bow in to a closed in dock a Dutch Spring is great tool to get the boat rotated 180 and heading out and you only need a boat length as the stern stays on the dock the whole way round. It can also be done single handed as all the lines are at the stern so easy to reach solo.
(I just googled Dutch Spring line and everything that came up is wrong or not what I know as a Dutch Spring)
So, I’ll explain… rig the first spring line as you would usually to spring the bow out (aft stern cleat to some clear on the dock mid ship and set it to slip) place a fender on the aft corner by the dock as this presses against the dock as you spring the bow out. Then the fun bit rig a second spring line and set it to slip from the aft cleat on the far side from the dock to a cleat on the dock right at the stern (the line cross behind the transom, and do use the fairleads)
Now after letting all other lines go. reverse on the on the first spring line, the fender will press against the dock and the bow will swing out.. as you do this take in the slack on the second spring line. Once the bow is out greater then about 45deg or more go into neutral and slip the first spring. Now go into forward and drive on the second spring line this will continue to swing the bow out and around further. Once you are facing in the desired direction slip the second spring and off you go.
Colle Bustin
S/v Hippō Nonsuch 30C #173
Port Washington, NY
If that was my slip and it doesn’t look like there would be any current. At least on Hippō i would:
Wind from north and east- drive in forward port to.. the stronger the east the harder the angle to the dock to drive the bow in and use the port kick to get the stern in.
Wind from south and west - reverse all the way in, Starboard to. Out in clear water get enough way to have control in reverse then back her all the way in. The wind will keep the bow under control. A shallower track if it’s more southern and a wider track for a harder west wind.
Colle Bustin
S/v Hippō Nonsuch 30C #173
Port Washington, NY
You’ve gotten good advice already, so I’d just like to underline a few points.
Because of our large masts in the bow, our boats are very prone toward the bow blowing away from the wind. That makes it very important to pick the approach that matches the wind’s speed and direction, as well as any current running through your marina. Unless those are pretty consistent, you may want to pick and choose each time rather than trying to make one approach work in all conditions.
You haven’t mentioned whether you’re singlehanding or will have crew. That will also affect your approach and departure. For example, because the bow tends to blow away from the wind and you’ve said your prevailing wind blows the boat off the dock, any docking strategy that depends on tying the bow up first will likely need crew.
A number of docking and departure strategies for side-tie slips with crosswinds involve using a spring line, as others have described. Because many of those tricks involve pressing one part of the boat against the dock while another part angles out, fender placement becomes really critical. If your marina will let you, one way to ameliorate that is to have bumpers running the length of the dock. A cheap way to do that is to get used canvas-covered fire hose and line the entire dock with it in a scalloped pattern. Here’s a picture of that on my dock, with a local acquaintance admiring it.
Another trick I’ve found handy is to keep a mix of lines ready to use both on the dock and on the boat pre-sized for your common tie-ups. I have some lines cleated on the dock with eyes ready to drop over boat cleats, and others tied on the boat with eyes ready to drop on the dock cleats. That makes it quick to get a first connection to the dock on arrival, or to throw off a last connection on departure.
Hi Eric, I love to state the obvious. If you haven’t already done so, check for prop walk by driving astern while moored to the dock and observing the thrust on both sides. Chancy has a saildrive and there is a lot more thrust to port which pushes the stern to starboard when going astern. Very useful information.
When going astern and the prop walk is getting in the way, go to neutral to eliminate the prop walk for a few second and let the rudder do the work.
If you adopt the car driver stance while backing down, shoulder check often, the other 25’ of boat may not be following you.
I have a great slip on the hammerhead which I share with another boat. I Moore starboard to the dock which is ideal for Chancy. The prevailing wind is mostly from the stern with a little push off the dock so I can sail down the fairway at just the right speed under mast alone. Round my neighbour with lots of clearance turn into the dock put the helm to port, go astern and do a spot landing (provided there is no-one watching).
Coming from the opposite direction single handed is not so much fun. I think this will be your case. I don’t seem to be able to just motor alongside the dock and stop with the wind, prop walk and fear of wounding Chancy working against me. Putting the bow in and jumping off is quite beyond this lame 80 year old. So my plan is to motor past the dock put the helm over to starboard and stop at an angle of 30 - 40° to the dock more or less alongside my neighbour. Back down on the dock with the prop walk aiding the rudder to make a nice sharp turn. Going ahead to stop Chancy (no prop walk effect) and using the thrust on the rudder (the helm is already to starboard) to kick the stern in and no chance of annoying my neighbour if I overshoot. That’s the theory (comments welcome). I intend to practice with some self launching fenders (Mark’s term) on board but we are always in a hurry to go somewhere or get home to the dog and never make the time to practice. A mistake.
One last very obvious thing, it is a good idea to double check that the transmission is in neutral when you step off the boat having just made a perfect spot landing with an audience. I would rather not say how I know that.
