On Sunday, October 20, 2024 at 7:16:11 PM UTC-4 Surendira Siva wrote:
am preparing for a few upgrades for next season. I need a new sail and I need a stack pack.
It will be great to get some recommendations.
On sails, should I go for fully battened sail, like the Mack Sails suggest? Does it work for Nonsuch sails? And the material, are there any recommendations?
On the stack pack, does the Doyle stack pack any advantage? Does it have less windage effect?
On 10/21/2024 9:44 AM EDT Rob Cohen “Soave” NS33 Westport, CT rob....@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Short answer… neither for me. Sailors I’ve talked to seem to prefer Doyle.
We’re also ending our first season with our “new to us” Nonsuch. Soave has a older sail that is still serviceable as a cruising sail, but we have difficulty controlling it’s shape, particularly when close hauled. We’re rigged with a conventional Nonsuch setup (partial battens, no stack-pack ).
We didn’t race this season, but we enjoyed being able to catch up to newer mid to upper 30’s Beneteau and Catalina boats ( they probably didn’t know they were racing). Mast furled mains remain a mystery to me… but when they work they make dousing the sail pretty easy. Lots of options to fit any sailing preference these days. Sail stacking options to me are similar compromises that offer value for some and distraction for others. Depends on the sailor.
I’m partial to the old school simplicity that Soave offers.
I’m contemplating replacing Soave’s sail, but will probably take another season getting to know her before deciding on a replacement.
My research so far has led me to the following inclinations.
Verify the mast track is optimal when you plan a sail replacement. The Tides track system is a popular solution for NonSuch boats. To get the benefit of any sail stacking solution the luff needs to run free up and down the mast. Investing in mast track optimization has strong ROI for most sailors if they don’t already have a good mast track system.
Full battens complicate the mechanics of the track system because ( when not supported by the sail ) the batten is a long lever acting on whatever is connecting it to the mast track. With full battens get the best possible mast track car available. On Soave, I will most likely use full battens on the upper two and partial for the lower two battens.
Your boat and sailing preferences will determine the setup that is best for you. Main factors … How often you solo sail? Are you or your crew comfortable leaving the cockpit? How meticulous are you about sail storage ? Do you race ? Do you trust your autopilot ?
Under “deals” on the INA website Doug at Quantum Sails has some solid experience with NonSuch sails working with boats in the Great Lakes. A sailmaker with boat specific experience is more likely to get things right on the first try.
Sail, sail cover, stacking, and track need to work together. Make sure it’s clear who is responsible for integration of the parts.
I’m 64, mostly sail with my wife, and am fit enough to leave the cockpit. We have a 5-10 min motor to Soave’s boat basin depending on where the wind and tide decide we should drop the main. I like the simplicity of the standard NonSuch rig. When we drop the main, I like to go to the mast to see that the luff drops like an accordion on opposite sides of the mast at each mast car. If it’s calm I usually tidy up the sail as Linda steers through the channel to our basin. If it is blowing with lots of chop I’m confident our main will drop on it’s own without me at the mast. We have a good strong autopilot that I trust. Using the autopilot is a good option when solo sailing.
At the dock, I manually put the cover on, a process that takes 5-15 mins depending on how picky I feel about sail folding and if it’s raining and need to do it quick. Most of my sailing life has been one-design racing ( yea the nuts that role the entire main after each use and stow it below deck ). With Soave I feel compelled to walk down the leech check the batten pockets, and gently flake from the leach so the sail roughly follows the same accordion pattern as the luff. This usually includes pulling the leach aft because it tends to bunch forward a bit when it drops ( maybe a case for full battens ? ). Most days, I like to linger a bit after a sail so putting the cover on at the dock doesn’t seem like a chore. For me, the simplicity of the conventional setup fits our sailing style.
I’m happy that I have the luxury of time to make the decision. I learn lots by looking at other NonSuch boats and talking to their owners and crews. Also, happy that Soave’s POs made good choices in their stewardship of her. I still have lots to learn from Soave.
I hope others will post their thoughts and experiences with sail replacements.
We have sailed Chimera, our 30U, now for seven seasons. She came with a 5-ish year old Doyle Stack Pack and corresponding sail with full length battens. Performance under sail was excellent. The Stack Pack is pulled up and into a “closed” position as the sail is hoisted. The Pack essentially folds up, flat against the bottom few feet of the sail, essentially becoming part of the sail.
To Rob’s point above regarding full length battens. He’s absolutely right. Our sail has full length battens and it only works because we have a Tides Track system which allows the sail (battens and all) to fall down into the pack in under 2 seconds. I’ve been sailing all sorts of boats for 25 years and still giggle to myself every time we douse that huge sail and it basically disappears in the blink of an eye.
Back to the Stack Pack discussion… Last season we decided to rig the boat without the Stack Pack for the following reasons:
The previous owners selected white Sunbrella for the pack thinking that it would look better while under sail rather than having the bottom 10% of the sail appear to be a different color. As you can imagine, a white cover out in the elements season after season just starts to look pretty shabby, and despite having had it professionally cleaned twice it just looks dirty all the time. And that’s just not how we keep our boat. The photos show what I’m talking about.
The Doyle loft that made this particular Stack Pack had little, if any experience making one for a Nonsuch and, frankly, did a rather poor job. Hanger lines were attached along the top of each side with no webbing or anything “cradling” the load of the sail and pack. Subsequently, the angle of the hanger line was much sharper, and pulled against the fabric holding the zipper across the top as the load was not properly supported from below. Eventually, tears started forming on either side of the zipper and, despite my attempts to create cradling hanger lines and minimize this stress, the top of the pack was basically destroyed. This photo shows my prototype at “cradling” hanger lines. Once I had the dimensions figured out, I remade them with webbing along the bottom of the pack instead of line.
Among the many things we learned was that the boat performs just as well under sail with or without the Stack Pack. Confirming for me that it is a solid design that (when executed properly) is a great option for efficiently storing your sail that doesn’t impact the performance of the sail.
We sailed the 2024 season using a traditional lay-on-top cover. I am currently in the process of dismantling my old Stack Pack and will use it as a pattern for a custom replacement, and an excuse to buy the Sail-rite sewing machine I’ve always wanted. Hope to have that project wrapped up here by the first of May. I’ll be sure to document with photos, etc. as I go. If I feel really ambitious, I’ll draw up measured plans and share them with the group.
TLDR; If you have a Doyle Stack Pack made, make sure the loft knows what they’re doing, don’t pick white Sunbrella, and make sure your hanger lines attach to webbing that cradles the pack. Oh, and full-length battens + Tides Track is amazing on a sail this big.
I concur with contacting and recommend Paul Beaudin at Doyle (now in Mamaroneck, NY). Doyle made my StackPack 10 or 11 years ago and it still looks good (occasional repairs i.e. replace top zippers, velcro closures for the bag’s battens, etc). One of the top 5 improvements to my boat. I do not recall the specifics of the MackPack, but the Doyle pack on my boat has a collar (removable if desired) that wraps around the mast and keeps the pack in place and also makes it more aerodynamic. As noted by others, the pack has a membrane that is attached to the the sail so when the sail is raised it pulls the pack flush to the bottom of sail so it doesn’t catch air creating drag and gives it a finished/clean look.
Doyle also made a new sail for me 2 seasons ago. My 2 previous sails (original and then the replacement) had 4 partial battens and Paul indicated that this was the best way to go for the new sail. They use the original Botts designed sail as the pattern for new Nonsuch sails.
Peter Grabow
S/V CAKE WALK III
1987 30U 430
Jersey City - for a few more weeks, then Stamford!
I had Doyle in Salem, MA construct a new sail and Stack Pack for my 26 back in 2016. I’m happy with the sail and Stack Pack and both have held up well over 9 seasons in New England. I love the convenience of just zipping the sail up inside the Stack Pack and doing so keeps shields it from UV and the elements it would be otherwise exposed to - I was often too lazy to wrestle with the old sail cover.
When the Stack Pack was new the appearance while under sail took some getting used - it’s not as “pure” as a sail alone. I also wondered whether it affected performance. The convenience of the Stack Pack outweighs the issue of how it looks under sail and if there is any loss of performance I don’t notice it.
Mike Hoff
Evelyn May
1983 26C 112
Lake Tashmoo, Tisbury, MA
